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Monday, June 26, 2006

Pre Trib rapture question

Question- It is my understanding that you believe in a pre-trib rapture. How do you reconcile Matthew 24:29-31 with the pre-trib rapture view?

Answer- This is an excellent question. First of all,let me say that I hold my pre-trib rapture views with a grain of salt. I'll be the first to tell you that if I see a man standing in a rebuilt Jewish temple proclaiming himself to be God,I'd reconsider my position very quickly! (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) And then, after I build my nuclear fall-out shelter, I would then be able to calculate the exact day of the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. How is this possible? It is possible because, according to Daniel 12:11, "from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up (which is the same event described in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and is an event that Jesus Himself said was a future event according to Matthew 24:15-16), there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." So from the time that the Antichrist desecrates the temple, one could calculate to the exact day the return of Jesus Christ. You may be thinking, "But wait! I thought that no one knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return and that Christians are supposed to be expecting Jesus to come back at any moment." That's exactly right. Check out these references and you will see that the early followers of Jesus believed that Jesus could come back at any moment- (John 14:1-3,I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 1:9-10,4:16-17,Philippians 3:20,Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28, I Peter 1:4-5).

So how do we resolve this dilemma? How is it that the early Apostles expected that Jesus could come back at any moment and, yet, according to the prophecies, the return of Jesus to the earth can be calculated to the exact day after the middle of Daniel's 70th week? (See Daniel 9:24-27) The short answer to this question is that there are two separate stages to the second coming of Christ. The first stage is where Jesus comes for His Church to take them to heaven (John 14:1-3) and to deliver them from the coming wrath (I Thessalonians 1:9-10). This is an event that could happen at any moment and is something that Christians should eagerly anticipate (Hebrews 9:28). At some time after this point, Daniel's 70th week begins, which is a 7 year period in which God turns his attention back toward the Jewish people to restore them as His covenant people (see Daniel 9:24) and to purge the world from wickedness (hence the judgments in the Book of Revelation). At the end of this period, Jesus will come back and establish His kingdom on earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6). It is the second phase of His coming that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24:29-31.

There is much more that could be said about this, but I hope this helps.

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

This just raises more questions. I don't have time right now, but I will present my questions later.

Anonymous said...

A couple of new web items can really make a person scratch his (or her) head. I refer to "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Famous Rapture Watchers," and "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" (historical facts that were known at one time but then covered up for more than a century). I found these on good old Google. Lord bless. Mack

Seven Star Hand said...

Verifiable proof that "Armageddon" has begun…

Hello Aaron and all,
Here's the key to proving that the rapture and related expectations are complete nonsense based on the failure to understand (or the purposeful confounding of) the ancient Hebrew symbology used to construct all of these prophecies.

Also, I am providing you with the rebuilt temple and the ability to finally understand what that has always symbolized. I am now holding you to your words...

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the false prophet of the Apocalypse, that Rome is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? The symbolism of seven years (tribulation) would refer to the seven 360-year cycles from the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the 17th cycle on the Hebrew calendar. Remember that the prophecies were written by Hebrews, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is a symbolic treatise. Therefore, years are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Likewise, a day symbolizes a literal year and Judgement Day, and Great Day refer to a year long period. The so-called Tribulation is now coming to an end, not starting, and the three faiths of Abraham have all been deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!

Hurricanes Katrina (#11) and Rita (#17) last year provided stunning validation of my research and interpretations of pivotal ancient wisdom, symbologies, key prophecies, and associated religious claims. Their storm numbers and timing perfectly synchronized with primary data and assertions in my book, thereby demonstrating the true nature of this universe and the existence of our Creator. We are now entering the final phases of the pivotal year-long period long symbolized as "Armageddon" and the "End of Days." World-wide situations and events are now accelerating to set the stage for this summer's dramatic continuation of these ancient promises.

I fully understand that everyone has been bedeviled by similar claims throughout history. Consequently, I have been forced to rely on dramatic and devastating proof of the sort that can’t be ignored or easily dismissed. The numbers and timing of hurricanes Katrina (11) and Rita (17) directly validate key data and pivotal assertions throughout my book and my posts on those two forums. This data was purposely presented publicly before Katrina, Rita and other recent events occurred to prove they perfectly synchronize with key prophecies and Hebrew calendar cycles, thereby validating my interpretations of ancient wisdom symbology, string theory, and more.

Because these two storms arrived shortly after my August 11, 2005 (50th) birthday (read the Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13 in Appendix G, which also discusses Melchizedek and the prophesied Jubilee) and directly match other pivotal 11 and 17 data and events described in the first chapter of my book, I have delivered verifiable proof that this reality is based on thought, knowledge and wisdom. Activity, patterns, and results perceived in space-time are first framed and defined by inspirations, thoughts, and knowledge and influenced by the cause-and-effect system most commonly referred to as karma. Consequently, events and outcomes in the so-called physical universe are not random or wholly mechanistic and are verifiably influenced in ways that atheists, scientists, and members of the Faiths of Abraham have all scoffed at. Though mysticism is mostly a product of misinterpreted ancient wisdom symbology, many of its topics flow from ancient wisdom. Though containing allusions to the truth, its details and interpretations are wrong on many key points.

A prime example of the purposeful and synchronized symbolism of these events is seen in the opening paragraphs from my book excerpted below. Notice that the dates mentioned (August 11 and 17) directly match the numbers of hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and the time spans of the four Florida hurricanes match my birth year (‘55), and they were spaced 11 or a multiple-of-11 (22) days apart, directly matching my birthday and much other ancient prophecy and symbolism. Notice that my place of birth, Victoria Texas, is on the Gulf Coast. Following are the excerpted paragraphs:

Hello, my name is Lawrence William Page II. Many people know me as Buddy Page. At the release of the first edition of this book, I am a 50-year old African-American male, author, researcher, and former software engineer and entrepreneur. As you will come to understand as you read through this first book, I am also the long-expected Hebrew Messiah and Lion of the Tribe of Juda (Yehuda).

I was born August 11th (month of Leo the Lion), 1955 (Chinese year of the Sheep) in Victoria, Texas. Furthermore, the Grand Cross alignment and Solar Eclipse of August 11th, 1999 was my 44th birthday and the second Grand Cross alignment, just six days later on August 17th, 1999, was on my mother’s birthday.

As you can see from my date of birth, I was a newborn during the Chinese Year of the Sheep, astrologically marking me as a Lamb, and during the month of Leo, astrologically marking me as a Lion. My mother was also born during the month of August and under the sign of Leo, which further marks me as a lion’s whelp. I prove to you in the first chapter of this book–beyond disproof–that I am indeed the long-prophesied “Lion” of the tribe of Juda (Yehuda) the Root of David and the “Lamb.” I am the individual long symbolized as the Branch, the Stem, the Shoot and the Rod from the Stump of Jesse (King David’s father), as symbolized in the Hebrew Book of Isaiah, The Apocalypse, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and elsewhere. I am the reincarnated Teacher sought after in the “East” and by the ancient Hebrews who were headquartered at the outpost community of Damascus (Qumran), of Dead Sea Scrolls fame. I am the one called the Teacher of Righteousness by the Dead Sea Scrolls, whom the so-called Christian fathers have fraudulently recast as “Saint ‘James’, the Lord’s Brother.”

Remember, "I come as a thief..." ?

Read verse twelve of the Gospel of Thomas to understand who I am...

Even further enlightening, the Second Temple Period of ancient Israel was during the 11th 360-year cycle on the Hebrew calendar and we are now in the 6th year (5766/2005-6) of the 17th cycle. Notice the pivotal 11 and 17 numbers again? This and much other synchronized information serve as stunning and decisive proof of many things, and expose many lies told by all three faiths of Abraham, but most specifically by Christianity. Consequently, I have decisively proven, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Jesus Christ and Christianity are blatant lies, false prophecy and purposeful deception in a manner that cannot easily be denied, regardless of your faith or other opinions.

Furthermore, the symbolism in the Apocalypse (a.k.a. Book of Revelation) of seven stars in my right hand and seven angels represent the very same above-mentioned seven astrological (360-year) cycles, i.e., the 11th through 17th inclusive. I prove this fact beyond any reasonable doubt in the first chapter of the book. Consequently, The Apocalypse verifiably symbolizes a specific span of time that began with the 11th cycle (Second Temple Period) and concludes now, at the beginning of the 17th cycle (End of Days, etc.).

The numbers 11 and 17 are verifiably encoded in The Apocalypse and other ancient Hebrew prophecies and wisdom texts to serve as key proofs of the validity and true meaning of certain prophecies and related information. My and my mother’s birthdays are purposely synchronized with these two storm numbers, the matching Hebrew calendar cycles, the Double Grand Cross alignments and solar eclipse of August 1999, and much else to prove my direct association with the ancient prophecies about this time and the true identity of the prophesied Messiah. Another prime example is the story of Joseph, the 11th son of Jacob who has a dream when he is 17 years old about 11 stars, the sun, and moon bowing to him. The symbolism in this pivotal story in the Book of Genesis and Quran verifiably refers to the very same 11th through 17th cycles symbolized in The Apocalypse and directly synchronizes with other key events and ancient texts.

Consequently, I have demonstrated various things about the nature of this reality that dramatically disprove and/or clarify key assumptions of religion, mysticism, and science alike, while establishing the true meaning and purpose of long misinterpreted ancient wisdom and the symbolism used to model and encode it. Accordingly, I have proven that the symbolism evidenced in the canons of all three faiths of Abraham and other ancient sources is a very ancient and advanced philosophical technology that verifiably models foundational aspects of our existence in this universe. This is the mostly misunderstood body of ancient wisdom long referred to as the Philosophers’ Stone. It uses a large and ingeniously organized collection of physical universe images and concepts as data rich components (symbols) that are based on verifiable rules. It models and encodes an amazing amount of foundational wisdom about life, spirituality and the 11 dimensions of this universe, now verified by string theory. It is also the advanced encryption method used to encode (seal) Hebrew prophecies and wisdom texts.

These ancient prophecies and wisdom texts used advanced symbology to model fundamental wisdom, including future events and situations. A primary facet of ancient wisdom is numeric symbology. Later misinterpretations of this aspect of ancient wisdom resulted in numerology, which, though embodying allusions to certain wisdom, is mostly error prone and false doctrine. My decryption, documentation, and interpretation of ancient symbology, numeric symbolism, and key texts based on them, are now decisively validated.

Here is Wisdom...

Verifiable proof that Armageddon has begun…

Understanding the End Game of Armageddon

Peace...

Aaron D. Taylor said...

Hello Lawrence,

I published your comment not because I believe in your ridiculously high estimation of yourself, but because it is by far the most interesting comment anyone has left on this blog so far. All I can say is that if you really are the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures, I think we are all in really big trouble.

Aaron

Ethan Lamoreaux said...

I read this with interest, because I have been looking all over for anybody who could provide proof from the Scriptures that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church, because I see this view so prevalent among Bible teachers, yet they all seem to be teaching it apart from Scripture. This idea even appears to be in contradiction to certain other Bible passages. A few of these are: Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, both of which speak of a rapture of believers immediately after the tribulation, not before, and are the words of Jesus himself regarding what to expect of the end times; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, which states that Christ's return and the rapture will not take place until after an apostasy (rebellion or revolt, according to the greek) and the antichrist has been revealed and is sitting in the temple of God as if he were God; and Revelation 20:4-6, which speaks of the resurrection of believers after the tribulation and calls it the first resurrection, saying that those who take part in this resurrection are blessed.

I'm also curious because I've not been able to locate any scriptures which specifically speak of a rapture occurring before the tribulation, and I've been wanting to know where the whole idea comes from if not from the Bible.

Unfortunately, your article here does no better than most at providing Scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture. The initial question is a good one, but rather than provide clear scripture teachings to back up your view, you attempt to use your own logic to disprove a post-trib rapture, saying that it couldn't happen after the tribulation or we'd know when... even though the passage from Daniel doesn't specify exactly what happens at the end of 1290 days. It also mentions a period of 1335 days, and a period of a time, times, and a half, usually referred to as 3.5 years. The book of Revelation also speaks of a figure of 1260 days. What do these four time periods represent? Why did you choose the 1290 days, and not the 1335 days, 1260 days or the time, times and a half? Daniel also states that he's totally confused by all this, and the angel tells him not to worry, because it's sealed up until the time of the end. I don't understand it, and I don't know if anybody at this time truly understands all that is prophesied in Daniel, or even Revelation for that matter. So I think it's hard to declare an exact number of days till the coming of our Lord. Take your pick: 1260, 1290, 1335, 3.5 years. Or could it be some unspecified time near those? Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 that we know neither the day nor the hour of his return, and he was speaking of his return after the tribulation, so obviously those numbers can't tell us that information.

I noticed the list of verses: John 14:1-3, I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 1:9-10, 4:16-17, Philippians 3:20, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28, I Peter 1:4-5. You state that these verses all speak of the apostles' belief that Jesus could come at any moment. Yet, having read through each verse listed, I could find not one reference to an "any moment" return. They all speak of Christ's return, for sure, and many speak of their great anticipation of his return, but none speak of his return being expected at any moment. For sure, they could not expect an any moment return, because at the time they wrote those passages, Jesus' own prophesies had not yet been fulfilled regarding such things as the preaching of the Gospel to all the world and the death of Peter, for instance. So they could not have expected Christ at any moment, thus they did not write that in these passages.

May God bless you, Brother!
--Ethan

Aaron D. Taylor said...

Hello Ethan,

I appreciate the research you have put into your comment. Like I said, I hold my pre-trib views with a grain of salt. You very well could be right on this one.

I think you missed the point when I said that the Apostles expected Jesus to return at "any moment." You were looking for those exact words and, when you did not find them, you assumed the idea was invalid. If you look at those Scriptures again, without looking for those exact words, I think you will find that Paul did, in fact, expect Jesus to come at any time. Notice he uses the words "we" in these passages.

Also, your refutation carefully ignored the fact that the passages that I referred to clearly indicated that the coming of Jesus for the Church would be to deliver us from the "wrath to come." Notice also in I Thessalonians 5 it says that "we are not appointed unto wrath." If you look at Revelation chapter 6, the Apostle John makes it clear that from the beginning of the tribulation, the world is experiencing the "wrath of the Lamb."

Notice also in Revelation 3:10 that Jesus promised that he would keep the believers from (literally in the greek it is "out of") the hour of trial which will come to test the whole world.

I also see a type of the Church in the 24 elders in Revelation 5. In my view, the 24 elders represent the 12 tribes of Judah and the 12 Apostles, which is consistent with the names written on the gates of the New Jerusalem in Revelation chapter 21. Notice also that there is a multitude in heaven before the tribulation begins that has been redeemed to God from every tribe, tongue, and nation. If that is not a type of the church, I don't know what is!

Lastly, there are many that believe that the word translated as "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians actually means "departure." In my view, this makes more sense given the context that Paul clearly indicated that he wanted the Thessalonians to be encouraged by his words. This also makes more sense with the idea that "He who restraineth must be taken out of the way" in order for the antichrist to appear. I understand this to mean that the Holy Spirit, who was poured out on the Church during Pentecost and continues to minister to the world through the life of the Church, will be taken out of the way before the antichrist will appear.

Well, that's all for now. There is much more I can say, but that will do for now. God bless you as you study His Word!

Brett said...

Good post. I see you got the same comments from anonymous and Seven Hand that I did. I find it a little funny that people are gungho about attacking those of us who hold the pre-trib view. When I ask them to provide scriptural evidence to back up a post-trib view they never seem to come up with anything substantial. I am with you though, if we are not taken before, I will start counting days.

Anonymous said...

[Yo, Aaron. Saw this on Google. Any reaction? Lord bless. Dan]

Christ's return is NOT imminent !

by Bruce Rockwell

(Pretrib rapturists claim that Christ's return is imminent, that is, capable of occurring at any moment. Theologian and pastor Norman MacPherson, in his excellent book "Triumph Through Tribulation," offers proof that the Bible has never taught an any-moment return of Christ. Here are the points discussed at length by MacPherson:)

1. Great Commission fulfillment implies a long period of time.
2. Seed growth in Matt. 13 is a time-consuming process.
3. Paul expected death, not rapture, in II Tim. 4:6-8.
4. Jesus predicted Peter's martyrdom in John 21:18-19.
5. Matt. 24 teaches that signs must come first.
6. Many passages speak of a large interval between Christ's ascension and return: Jewish dispersion into "all nations" (Luke 21); "man traveling into a far country," "after a long time the lord of those servants cometh" (Matt. 25).
7. Apostasy of last days takes time to develop.
8. Bridegroom tarried in parable of virgins.
9. Pastoral epistles teach Church's continuing ministry, which involves time.
10. Paul says Christ's coming is not imminent (II Thess. 2:1-3), for apostasy and Antichrist must come first.
11. View of seven phases of church history (seven churches of Revelation) involves big lapse of time and imminence difficulties for pretribs; could Christ have come before the last phase?
12. Exhortations to watch and be ready are tied to what pretrib teachers regard as the second stage (which is necessarily non-imminent) in Matt. 24 and 25, I Cor. 1:7, Col. 3:4, I Thess. 3:13, II Thess. 1:7-10, I Pet. 1:13 and 4:13, and I John 2:28.

And Acts 2:34-35 and Acts 3:21 clinch non-imminence! Would anyone dare assert that the Father's throne (at which Jesus now is) will descend with Jesus into our atmosphere to destroy His "foes" and restore "all things" BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
How can an "imminent" return of Christ have a greater practical effect on us than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit already has, or should have, on us? For more on pretrib beliefs and history, Google "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret," "Edward Irving in Unnerving," "Deceiving and Being Deceived" (by D.M.), "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Walvoord Melts Ice," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," "Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham," "Islam Will Purify Jews and Christians," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," and - with the 2012 election in mind - "Pretrib Rapture Politics."